In this post my desire is to invite discussion on the subject of "gifts of the Spirit". Specifically, what are commonly referred to as "sign gifts", that is, the gifts of tongues, healing abilities, etc.
So, my focus will be limited to these particular kinds of gifts and not such gifts as teaching and the like.
I am throwing this together in a hurry and I do not intend for this initial post of mine to be exhaustive but intend for it to simply spur a fellowship of discussion. I will start with the gift of tongues.
Let me begin by asking some opening questions and giving my understanding of these gifts at this point in my life:
1.)What are "tongues"? (a language/Acts 2:4-11, 1 Cor.12:28,13:1)
2.)What were they for? (a sign of the gift of the Holy Spirit/ Mark 16:17, Acts 10:44-46,19:6)
(a sign to the Jew/ of blessing when spoken by a Jew: Acts 2:4-11/ of judgement when spoken by a gentile: Deut.28:49,Isa.28:11,Acts 10:44-46,1Cor.14:21-22)
(for the purpose of declaring the gospel/ Acts 2:4-11)
(for establishing doctrine/ 1Cor. 14:6)
3.)Who used them? (Apostles/1Cor.13:1,14:6,14-15,18)
(some early believers/ Mark 16:17,Acts 10:44-46,19:6,1Cor.12:10,30)
4.)How were they used? (in an orderly manner/ 1Cor.14:13,26-28/ with need of an interpreter)
5.) What was said about them? (Temporary/1Cor.13:8)(a sign to the Jew/1Cor.14:21-22)
(prophesy was better because it edified others/ 1Cor.14:1,3-5,23-25)
(words that could be understood were better and edified the church/ 1Cor.14:9,11-12,14-17,19)
One thing that I have also noted about the "sign gifts" is their apparent focus on Israel and The Jew. The Jews were a "sign nation", that is, their history was one marked by requiring "signs" in order to believe. (1Cor.1:22)
They had begun as a nation under the deliverance of Moses to expect such "proofs"
(Ex.4:1-9)Recall their regular request of signs in the gospels.
It appears to me that in the "early church" period in which the Corinthian letters would fall these "sign gifts" were still in operation and had as their main end a testimony and witness to the Jew as long as priority was still being given to them ("to the Jew first").
Hopefully, this is enough to get the conversation going! As I said, I am seeking input on this subject and have included the discussion starters above for that purpose.
So, I await your thoughts, observations, additions, subtractions, etc!
22 comments:
No thoughts on this? Or is there just no interest in this subject?
I'll tell Craig to hop over here.
He has been considering the gifts for a while.
Actually, he just put up a post about it this evening.
Heather
Tongues are also for personal edification (1 Cor 14:4) and are sign of baptism of Holy Spirit. Because some churches misuse this gift that doesn't mean we should throw it away or say it is for the past.
Thanks much Heather and Natasa. I am hoping for an in depth discussion on this because of its being a source of varying opinions.
Personally, at this point I do not see a need for this particular gift in this present dispensation when we have the completed canon of scripture, which is a greater source of clear edification, we no longer need apostolic authority verified, or is there a evangelistic priority given to the Jews who "required a sign". But, I am willing to hear and receive opposing views from scripture in my quest for a right interpretation.
Tom,
Mark 16 said that those who believe would do various miraculous things. This seems to me to be speaking of the Gospel going out. I am aware of a few instances in missionary work recently (like the last couple of years even) when God bridged the language barrier miraculously so the Gospel could be spoken. It seems to me that this was also the case in the early church. I believe this could be one understanding of 1 Cor 14:22 where it says that tongues are for those who don't believe.
Have you read the book Brucko? (the story of Bruce Olsen) Another missionary account where at one point people from one tribe went to another tribe and shared the Gospel. No one spoke the other tribe's language, but somehow the message was conveyed verbally. When Bruce did finally make it over to the other tribe and learned their language, there was indeed a church that had been started as a result, but no one spoke the other language! This is what I believe the gift of tongues always has been, and still is on the front lines.
As far as the interpretation of it having ceased (1 Cor 13) that doesn't make sense. It does not speak of scripture being completed, but us knowing as we are known. This will not occur in my opinion this side of eternity.
Just my thoughts.
(incidentally, I have never seen the gift used in a method I agreed with, and have never been a pentacostal sort myself.)
sorry, forgot to sign my last post.
Craig
Craig,
Thanks for your insights. I have not read the book you mentioned. I too have heard of miraculous happenings on the mission field and am a firm believer in the power of God to accomplish His kingdom work. I agree that all of the gifts incuding this one had as its theme and end the furtherance of the gospel. But, I will acknowledge that I have seen so much abuse in modern times of the biblical sign gifts that I will admit I have difficulty not looking at it with a jaundiced eye. But, I do see a thrust or specific purpose for these gifts in the early churches mandate toward the "sign requiring" Jewish people. I would add a passage from Acts 18:1-7 which is a record of events in Corinth where it seems most of the "tongues" emphasis took place. In these verses the Jews are admonished by Paul and then there is the account of them entering into a house which evidently shared a common wall with the Jewish synagogue. So, it is very likely that the Jews who gathered at this synagogue would have heard the gentiles at Corinth speaking in tongues. Would this be an affirmation of Paul's harsh words to them and a "sign" of judgement? With regards to the completion of the canon, I noted that in order to pose the question: If we have the completed revelation of God which contains all we need for godliness and edification why would we now need these sign gifts? I am referring specifically to the way they are practised in some church gatherings. There is certainly much here to take into account and to ponder!
I find it interesting that we call some of them sign gifts, as if they are somehow more miraculous than the rest. The way I understand 1 Cor 13 in context is that faith, hope, and love are the "more excellent way" and are also gifts of the Spirit.
When we look at Jesus' prayer in John 17 where he said to the Father in effect:
1)I have shown the world who you are
2)Now show the world who I am
a) by what I am about to do - death and resurrection- and
b) through those you have given me after I leave.
This work in (b) is no less miraculous when I love my neighbor as Christ loved him than it is if God uses me as a conduit to heal someone. (In my opinion)
Having said that, I do think what we would call "sign gifts" are more for the "front lines" than where the church is established. However, the battle is a spiritual one, not a geographic one, so we should not be to hasty to define the "front lines" as out there somewhere. Our culture is becoming more pagan and diverse. It is not inconceivable that you or I could be called upon to demonstrate God's power in a very visible way. I would not want to be the vessel that has taken himself out of the picture because I have decided that's not for today.
Just more of my thoughts.
Craig
Craig,
What a privelege it is to be used of God in His service. I heartily agree that we are living in a time of grave darkness and biblical apathy. Yet, I think there is always a tendency for people to focus on the externals (signs and wonders that are visable or audibly manifested) and ignore what you pointed out, that is, the internal works of the Holy Spirit whereby a person is raised from death to life and turned from darkness to life to a life of holiness and fruit bearing unto God. I concur wholeheartedly that this is one of, if not the greatest miracle of all!
Craig, I still cannot help but see these outward manifestations in biblical times as having specific purposes which I have already elaborated on in regards to the Jews. This to my mind is a crucial, defining point that weighs heavily on my thoughts concerning these particular kinds of "gifts". After reading some of your comments and your post, I was thinking last night about what Paul's concern was centered around, and that was, that nothing should make the cross of Christ of none effect. This to me, as I believe you are also articulating, is the "main thing". I am enjoying your thoughts on this!
Craig, I still cannot help but see these outward manifestations in biblical times as having specific purposes which I have already elaborated on in regards to the Jews. This to my mind is a crucial, defining point that weighs heavily on my thoughts concerning these particular kinds of "gifts".
I'm curious, if the signs were meant specifically for Jews, how do you understand Jesus' words in Matthew 12:39, 16:4, Luke 11:29-30 and John 2:18-22?
I understand Him to be talking to Jews and about Jews in those passages--and the use of "generation" seems to be pretty inclusive rather than aimed only at the Pharisees. True, there were Jews who did accept Jesus as Messiah but still...it was not only Jews who witnessed or experienced the power of the sign-gifts during the apostolic era.
1 Corinthians 1:22 also seems to indicate that the Jewish tendency to look for signs was not something God was interested in catering to.
I don't really have any answers. Your comment just brought to mind those passages and I was wondering how you understand them in light of your current perspective.
Heather
Heather,
My basis for considering this as an important part of understanding the gifts of the Spirit is, again, because of the Jews long history of such. What I am referring to is God's dealings with them all the way back to the time of the exodus from Egypt, throughout the times of the prophets, and even the events that took place during the Old Testament period(before the cross)when Jesus as well as His disciples were given the ability to do various "signs and wonders".
John, who was specifically called as an apostle to the circumcision, records various miracles in the Gospel of John and then closes the book by saying: "these things were written that ye may believe..."
And the verse you mention from Corinthians ties in with this history of the Jewish people seeking a "sign". Throughout their history God graciously gave them signs and revealed Himself and His will to them by this means. Did it change their hearts for the most part? No. Nevertheless God granted them signs throughout their generations. Yes, the gentiles were partakers of these gifts in the early church, but, was it primarily for their benefit or because there was still a priority in going to "the Jew first". I see the profit that the gentiles obtained from these gifts, especially when one considers the need for verification of apostolic authority and the lack of a complete canon to refer to in the matters of doctrine, practice, etc. But, I still see the signs having as their major focus the people of Israel.
I by no means claim to have this subject all figured out but I do really believe that there is a critical part of the puzzle to be found in the emphasis that was given to the Jewish people.
I don't have a Bible with me at the moment, but I will certainly look at the verses that you mentioned and will reply to those in a seperate entry.
I am encouraged by all the inquiring at input!
I see what you mean about certain signs being for verification of apostolic authority--and the desire of the Jews to receive signs.
Also, Paul did say that certain gifts would cease. But I've always understood that to mean that they would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8-13) but it appears from the context that Paul is talking about when we all see Christ face to face rather than when the canon of Scripture was complete--
I also have wondered whether our perceptions some of the gifts (like tongues and healing) may have become either limited or confused because of the false signs and wonders that Jesus warned against during the last days.
I honestly don't know and appreciate that you are willing to share your perspective and discuss.
I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts.
Heather
Tom,
I must admit that I have not looked up your references yet from this post. I have to do that before I can comment intelligently anyhow.
One thought on your third point in item number 5 - in every instance that we see tongues happening in Acts or elsewhere the words WERE understood. I wonder if Paul is in some way chastising in 1 Cor 14 when he speaks of not being understood. It seems different from the norm in the rest of scripture.
Been a long day. I plan on printing off your post with references and taking them to be my bedtime reading tonight. Then I'll have to cogitate for a while.
Blessings,
Craig
I found your blog on Heather's, and read over this post on the gifts of the spirit as I am studying it right now. I grew up in a church that was very conservative. So conservative that you never heard the word "tongues". Despite the misuse of the gifts today and all of the wacky practice out there, I just cannot put these gifts aside. If you read I Cor 12-14, I believe Paul is correcting the misuse of the gifts, but encouraging them in their correct order and purpose. He says to eagerly seek them 3 times and not to forbid them, and also that they must take place to edify the church. You state that you believe it is not for today, but this in no way seems to be what I Cor 13 is saying. I read it as when all things are made known, perfect, complete - the end of the age. There is also Acts 2:14-21 which speaks of these things (Holy Spirit pouring out, prophecy, etc) happening to the end of the age beginning with pentacost. Then there is Acts 2:38-39 which seems to say the same thing to me - the Holy Spirit would be given to their sons and daughters and all who are far off. This just after pentacost, so I am assuming he is telling them this same thing would take place throughout the ages. I don't think that everyone would or should speak in tongues, but I certainly cannot dismiss any of the gifts in light of the scriptures that I have studied.
I am one of those guys who loves discussion, so hope I am not coming across wrongly. I did not read every comment on this post either...thanks for sharing!
Craig and Heather,
I'll wait for your coming comments after you look over some of the things you mentioned.
Shaggy,
Thanks for your expressing your thoughts. Again, to try and put my view at this point in perspective. I believe that all of the verses you mention mean what they say. Having acknowledged that though, I must continue to pose the question and give it due regard, that is, were these gifts meant for everyone and for all generations, or did they have a specific end in view, and when that "end purpose" was set aside were they needed any longer. That purpose that I refer to is, again, God's special dealing with the Jew. This is my main point right now in respect to the sign gifts. I don't want to go off on another tangent, but since healing has been mentioned a few times let me add some examples from scripture that seem to show the passing of this gift even during the apostles day. Recall Paul telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs sake and his often infirmities? Why did he just not heal him? Also, recall Paul speaking of leaving Trophimus in Miletum sick. Again, why was there not a healing?
Some more fuel for the discussion, like we need it, right!!
Heather asked in a previous comment:
I'm curious, if the signs were meant specifically for Jews, how do you understand Jesus' words in Matthew 12:39, 16:4, Luke 11:29-30 and John 2:18-22?
In these verses Jesus rebukes the people for "seeking a sign". He attributes such a desire to an "evil and adulterous generation".
It is evident that Israel was in a very sad state spiritually when Jesus came and they were spoken of as a people "who drew nigh with their lips, but their heart was far from me".
Their desire to "walk by sight" rather than by faith was manifest in their attitudes as well as Jesus words of rebuke in these passages. They were truly a people who were very much affected by unbelief and spiritual "adultery" or unfaithfulness.
Nevertheless, God had given Israel descriptions of the coming King and Kingdom in the prophets and these descriptions were replete with references to miraculous occurances and an "overturning", as it were, of the effects of the sin curse.
Their was great anticipation in the people to experience the fulfillment of such prophecies as Isa.35:5-6 and we read Jesus' words in the gospels that affirm that He, indeed, was the fulfiller of these prophecies.
Note: Mat.11:2-5/15:30-31
Also, I would call attention to just a few more examples of, not only the people, but also of Jesus acknowledging the miraculous character of His mission among the nation.
Consider: (Mat.12:28/John 2:11,23/3:1-2/6:14/10:41-42)
These are just a sampling of references to the integral part that "signs and wonders" played in God's dealings with Israel through His Son.
But also, one must take into account that these "signifying" events did not end with Jesus' earthly ministry but were continued through the apostles and the early church, which continued to expose the Jews to God's working in their midst.
I believe what Peter says on the day of Pentecost is extremely important. As he speaks to this group of diaspora Jews and proselytes to Judaism who have gathered for the Feast of Pentecost and that have heard the exercise of the "tongues" gift, he declares:
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:....." (Acts 2:16-18) As far as Peter knew, they were in the final days and Jesus' return was imminent.
Therefore, he is beseeching these Jews to heed the signs(which were a fulfillment of O.T. prophecy) as a strong declaration from God to believe and repent.
So, again, in these statements of scripture I am confronted with a pattern of the Jewish people anticipating and receiving "signs" of God's coming King and Kingdom and His call for them to turn from their rebellion and believe on the one whom He has sent.
I will read your scriptures to understand where you are coming from - I am really digging into this and want to get all views. I would love to get into the healing study and discussion. I have read many John Wimber books, and like everyone, I don't agree with everything, but he if anyone, seems to have been given the gift of healing. (He has now passed away, he was the founder of the Vineyard church). There are a few people throughout history that seem to have been given the gift of healing (I will have to get one of those for you) with very solid facts. I am not real knowledgable in the individual gifts, but I also believe God can and will heal by faith if he so chooses. I have prayed healing for myself in a time I could barely walk, immediately after the prayer I was 100% healed. I prayed a prayer of healing over my wife when she was very ill and she was healed. I would not say it is a gift, but a prayer of faith as God's promises do not change. However, he heals according to his will, I have prayed several times and healing has not come. That does not stop me from praying however...
Looking forward to reading your context!
Thanks for answering my question. I'll be looking up the references you quoted.
Craig printed off the references from your original post and we were discussing the 1 Corinthians/isaiah connection. I hadn't noticed that before.
It kind of reminded me of Jesus' warning to not pray using vain repetition as the heathen. The Greek dictionary says that the original word meant "stutter" or "prate tediously". I have wondered if our modern idea of "praying in tongues" is often something like that--or worse, demonically inspired speech that the speaker doesn't understand because there is no interpreter.
I don't want to get too off-topic, though. I'll just go look up your references.
Heather
Shaggy,
We know from scripture that God has all power in heaven and on earth and it is certainly an unspeakable consolation to have these truths to rest on!
I too believe unwaveringly that God still heals people today according to His perfect will and purpose and I find strength in my past prayers that have been answered "yes", and also, that have been answered "no". Do I understand all the ins and outs and reasons why? No, but I must always remind myself that God doeth all things well!
So, yes, I do believe in praying for healing and that God can restore us both physically and spiritually according to His plan for us and others.
I do have difficulty with those who claim to be "healers", especially the "TBN" type.
But that is another vein of discussion which we can look into.
Ha, ha...I know what you mean about tbn. It is amazing to think that the creator of the universe has given us such amazing promises. Thanks for the encouragement there!
To all:
Thanks so much for all of your thoughts, observations, and insights into this topic thus far!
I hope that more are forthcoming as you continue to think on these things.
You all have been a blessing to me as you have helped me to delve into the scripture and to be reminded once again of the focus of "the volume of the book", and that is, Christ and Him crucified and redemption and reconciliation in and through Him!
I am so grateful when other believers "come along beside" and bring the experience and light that God has given them to assist me in the word and doctrine.
Once again I am baffled by the Holy Spirit.
Example for reference:
Who would read Genesis and see Melchizedek as anything but a man? Yet according to Psalms and Hebrews he was also a type of Christ. A King and Priest without beginning or end.
Current situation:
I would not have read Duet 28 or Isa 28's reference to foreigners as anything other than a conquering invader. However, the Holy Spirit through Paul in 1 Cor 14 says this is also fulfilled in the gift of tongues. Go figure!
God is smarter than I am apparently!
Thanks for all of the references Tom, I enjoyed looking them up. Much more thought needs to go into this.
Craig
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